Libby Live: Judy Four
Buy Anatomy of Deceit. Don't refresh wildly. And love one another–oh wait. I mean don't expect a transcript.
Folks are wandering into the courtroom. We'll start today where we left yesterday with the fight over what questions Judy should answer. Glad we had it–it got a chance for yet another celebrity, Bob Bennett, to weigh in. No wonder the courtroom is getting so hot.
It's Wells' turn to be in his grey suit today, not Fitz. Though Wells' grey suit doesn't look seersuckery at all, as Fitz' did.
Walton's in: before we get started, we have a problem with juror 15. Employer said that if there's no law on the books that requires them to pay for jury service, then they won't pay. If she has to stay beyond today, other than what we pay for jurors which is $35/day.
Walton: excuses juror 15.
Wells, In the last paragraph of this morning' New York Times, there's a statement that Fitzgerald is investigating Ms. Miller, the government has contended that Islamic charities tipped. She is not the subject or target of an investigation. But what I would like to do is–I believe we're going to want some discovery on this issue, to the extent that she could have been viewed as a subject, if that was viewed as intentional in any way, that would be an area that we'll make inquiry of. I've just read it, and I'd like to put the court on notice, we are going to ask for some discovery on it.
[Wells, is this news to you? If so, you've been living under a rock, not doing your job for the last two years.]
Fitz: With all due respect, the only thing new is an inaccuracy, she's never been a target or subject. We did not subpoena any reporter at NYT. Open record, lots of press attention on it. There's nothing new here, other than the story characterized her as being under investigation.
Wells: As I said, I just talked to Fitz, he indicated to me that there were letters to the Times, neither Miss Miller nor the Times were subjects of the investigation. "A very reputable paper has stated that there was an investigation." [Note, Jeffress will get up and argue against its credibility.] That is certainly something we'd like to explore on cross-examination. I'm just putting the court on notice.
Fitz: so the record is clear, info on that investigation has been public for a long time, there's ample information in public record.
Walton: we left with whether question was appropriate. My conclusion, it seems to me that scope of evidence that's relevant is constrained by what the issues are, in particular as it relates to the witness. When any witness takes the stand, their general credibility comes into issue. If there is evidence that definitively goes to her general credibility, obviously even though that challenge may be beyond that issue, if she had provided a false statement under oath, it would be appropriate to query her in reference to that false info, if she lied under oath before, then jury might conclude she would lie under oath again. If, in fact, there were other people she had spoken to on this issue, if there were in fact sources she had talked regarding that issue, because conceivably, it could be argued that she confused who she got the information from. The op-ed says nothing about "his wife." It's all about this trip, about his conclusions about the reasons we went to war, I'd assume in context of that broad scope, in reference to 5th paragraph of affadavit, specifically says she had never written an article about Wilson or Plame, she contemplated writing an article about op-ed, that op-ed says nothing about Plame. To ask a question about her sources this far afield would require her to reveal her sources, I don't think it's in any way relevant to this litigation. We need to make a record, in the event there's a conviction, in the event of an appeal. I assume as an officer of the court that she has sources that would provide info that is relevant to the broad scope of the topic of Wilson's op-ed.
Jeffress: One part of what your honor said is inaccurate regarding to her testimony. Your honor said she didn't talk to anyone else about Libby. She did, she can't remember the name of any person.
Walton: If that's true, I'd permit her to be queried about that.
Jeffress: With respect I think the court is cutting it too thin.
Walton: if you want to ask questions about Joe Wilson, I'll let you. I mean, that even goes beyond. The real issue here is the wife.
Jeffress: [raises voice] The real question here is her credibility. She will says that she believes the first time she heard about Wilson's wife was from Libby. She knows she talked to lots of people starting on July 6. If she's talking to lots of people, the likelihood is that somebody mentioned the wife. She will say that she cannot remember a single person about who talked to her about the name. I ought to be able to ask her about Mr. Wilson and who she talks to.
Jeffress: Do I understand your ruling that if she remembers someone besides Libby that I'm not entitled to ask her about that person?
Walton: How would that challenge her credibility.
Jeffress: Who were they?
Walton: if it's true that she can't remember those people, if she talked to other people about Wilson, they may have said something about the wife.
Jeffress: I submit that in an ordinary trial, when the whole issue is whether Libby said to her or she said to him, counsel would be able to ask, who else did you talk to.
[Jeffress is pretending this is an IIPA case]
Walton: I don't know whether a question about the op-ed would shed light on this. I don't have a problem if you ask questions about Wilson. It's plausible that somebody may have said something about the wife. If those discussions only had to do with whether the info in the op-ed was accurate or not.
Jeffress; I'm going to bring out that she had conversations with senior govt officials and not so senior govt officials about Plame, Joe Wilson, and this issue. I want to make sure I can ask that?
Fitz asks for a clarification.
J: She said Ms Plame and Joe Wilson.
W: It depends on what the issue is. If it's about Ms Wilson being responsible for sending Wilson to Niger.
F: Can we have the cite so we know what we're talking about?
J: I'm going to ask her that question.
F: The question is timeframe. Things happening in October. It's only relevant with things that happened after the column is published.
W: If she did have subsequent conversations, one could still review where she got the info.
F: This is a case where both Miller and Libby said he told her about Plame. This notion that we're depriving the defense of arguing that she told him, isn't right.
W: I don't think I'd be inclined to cut off inquiry based on Novak article.
Judy's in, this time her jacket has the big lapels, it's kind of charcoal, with a white tee shirt underneath. She's got her glasses on, looking nervously around the room. She's holding onto the water cup.
Geez. we went right into sidebar!!
Jurors coming in.
Walton: Good moring. You got elevated? We lost two jurors, as you know. We lost the last juror bc her employer could only pay her for 14 days of service. It's unfortunate that she didn't tell me while we were going through the jury selection process. We have 14 jurors who all look healthy–you gotta stay that way.
Jeffress Good morning Ms Miller
M Good morning Mr Jeffress
J Do you recall saying you had conversations with Senior and not so senior govt officials
M I remember having other conversations, I can't remember who they were
J You remember discussing that on the Gooddale show. Do you remember telling Mr Gooddale you had conversations with SGOs?
M I don't remember whether I made that comment in context of this.
On TV: I went to our counsel, I asked George Freeman, I had had conversations with SGOs and not-so SGOs, and I was fearful that my notes might be subpoenaed. They said don't worry, you don't have any exposure. It's one of those instances where I would have preferred to be wrong.
J Who were those SGOs, other than Libby
M I was not speaking to there about what I swore to in the affy, I used Joe Wilson as shorthand. When I said I had no recollection that I had no recollection of names of who I spoke to, I wasn't talking about broader issues.
J I don't want to ask about broader issues [yeah right!] You told Mr Gooddale you had conversations about
M Yes, but I didn't say I remembered their names? [Angry Judy]
J I want you to tell the jury whether it is true that you talked to SGOs about Wilson and PLame.
M I don't remember whether the people I talked to were senior or not-so senior, but unfortunately there is no reference in my notebooks, the only one I remember and in part bc I was able to refresh and there is no reference to Wilson before Mr Libby.
J There is a reference before, to his phone number, you were talking to somebody before that. Was that a SGO or not-so SGO.
M The interview above it was unrelated to Joe Wilson.
J I'll go back to where I was. I'll ask you about resistance to testifying. When you lost motion to quash, you recall lawyer seeking agreement, you would testify only about Mr Libby.
M Yes. No, wait a minute. Let me go back. The first conversations, it was about Mr Libby.
J Your lawyer said, if she testifies only about Mr Libby, will you agree not to subpoena her a second time
M That was the thrust of the conversation, I wasn't there.
J The govt said no, you had the oppty to avoid jail,
M if the govt had limited to Libby, and one source, one subject. And also that I thought I did not have a voluntary waiver.
J You knew another reporter had been subpoenaed. Did you also know a number of others had testified?
M During what time?
J At this time you were deciding whether you would appeal.
M I was aware that others were being subpoenaed and I was aware later that some were beginning to testify.
J Tim Russert?
M I can't remember whether I knew specifically who testified
J Your lawyer same lawyer as Cooper, Abrams, Cooper resisted subpoena.
M I don't know what Mr Cooper did
J You do know that after limiting testifying, he went in and testified
J and he testified before you appealed
M I don't know the order
J Did you know whether Cooper did some check with Libby before he testified
M I don't know that. All I know was that Cooper had testified and then he was called back to testify about another source. I didn't want to be called back about another source. That's part of the reason I went to jail.
J You knew that Cooper had gone in and testified about Libby.
M I don't remember the first person he testified about. I was more worried about being called back.
J You know he got called back. And that second source was Karl Rove
M I didn't know which was which. I didn't want to find myself in the position of Cooper.
J The position you didn't want to find yourself in was testifying solely about one source and then them calling you again,
M About something else or someone else.
J Who was that someone
M I don't know, I didn't want to be in that position
J You went to jail to protect a principle that you thought was very important, you thought if reporters could be subpoenaed, that would chill reporters' ability to get news, your resistance became a cause celebre.
M Yessir (eyes dart to lawyers)
J After you went to jail, at this point, you were represented by another lawyer, Bennet. You authorized Bennett to call Libby's lawyer. Libby's lawyer said I told Abrams a year ago the waiver was voluntary and we mean it. That's the message he got from lawyer. Within a few weeks, you did testify. You weren't satisfied just with representation from Libby's lawyer to your lawyer. He called you in jail, he probably called you Judy rather than Miss Miller, but he said, "it's okay to testify." You said you needed an agreement with Fitz.
J You needed an agreement with Fitz before you'd testify.
M I believe I got that agreement, yes.
J June 23 meeting. How long?
M Shorter than St Regis meeting
J 5 pages of notes
M I don't remember without looking at notes.
J Libby talking about Niger, what WH had been told, he talked about two streams of reporting that intell agencies had concerning issue of Iraq seeking uranium from Niger.
M I don't remember whether two streams was first or second meeting.
J Yesterday you said two streams. What you told the jury yesterday, you said wfe works in WINPAC. Is it a fact that notes say First stream, and then Wilson's report, and then you have second stream, you have something in parenthesis, "Wife works in bureau." Is your memory fuzzy about that entry.
M The thing that's fuzzy was whether or not I put question mark there or he said "may" work in bureau.
J It's true that you cannot be certain that you didn't already know that Wilson's wife worked at CIA prior to June 23.
M I have no recollection of knowing that before. I'm confidant that I had never heard that before. I had heard of Joe Wilson. And my notes reflect that.
J In your GJ appearance where you talked about this meeting.
GJ testimony. And when you heard that, was that the first time you associated Wilson's wife with bureau. A I don't remember, but it was among the first times.
J Was that your testimony? Was it true.
Judy looks at lawyer.
M The use of the term bureau was new to me. It's only the word bureau that leaps out at me.
J So you might have heard that she worked at CIA, just not at bureau.
M I just don't have any recollection even hearing about her before June 23.
GJ testimony: As you sit here, do you think it was the first time. A I believe it was the first time but I can't be absolutely certain.
J You're not absolutely certain
M I believe it was the first time, I have no recollection of having the discussion with someone else, and there are no notes that I did.
J Is it your understanding there are bureaus in CIA
M I wouldn't use that formulation
J But there aren't bureaus
M Some people refer to Nonproliferation Bureau, occasionally some people say NP bureau. It's sometimes called a division, a unit. normally when people say bureau they mean FBI, I was confused for a moment (laughs) and says I still am
J State has bureaus.
M There are many bureaus.
J State, INR
M I don't know if they're called bureaus.
J shows her org chart for State, does that refresh recollection that there are many bureaus at State (goes through a few). Does that refresh recollection that State has bureau of NP. But there is no such bureau at CIA
M I don't know that specifically.
J Is is true that when you said wife works in bureau, your testimony was necessarily trying to interpret this note you had not real recollection.
M I remember he used the word bureau
J Did you say to GJ your memory was fuzzy.
M First or second
J First, you didn't remember the meeting at all! So second.
J do you remember you said you might have been confused.
M I don't remember, if you could show me the GJ testimony, that would be helpful.
GJ testimony: In this context did you understand bureau to refer to FBI. I might have been confused. It's in a parenthesis, it's very hard bc my memory is so bad on this. He wasn't sure.
J That's still true
M Yes, because I had forgotten this meeting entirely.
J Your practice, you do use parens from time to time. That can indicate something the source said, or something you're asking the source about.
M Some times
J It can be either way.
M It's usually the former, but it can be the latter. I try to use brackets for things I know. It's not 100% but it's what I usually do.
J If you're looking at notes and see something in parens, it can be one of two things.
M It can.
J In looking at your notes, you saw several entries on Mr Wilson's wife.
M Correct. You mean references.
Sidebar. Nope, insta-break.
Walton had something he had to deal with–he bolted to deal with it.
Court reporter has to fix something.
Every time Judy sits down, she has this sweet smile on her face, then nervously puts her hair back. Back to tissue. Playing with mike to get it right.
Fitz: Asking for limiting instruction about what her attorney said to Libby's attorney, I can show revised instruction.
J About her testimony about what she said her attorney said he told Libby's lawyer is just admitted for truth.
Judy looking for someone in court room. nnow she has a bit of a grimace. Now doing some de-stress exercises.
Jury coming in.
Walton: Ladies and gentleman, previously I have indicated that if a statement has been made outside of court, then such statements are hearsay not admissible for truth. Same thing happened wrt this witness she said her lawyer had a conversation with Libby's lawyer, those discussions are hearsay. You can't consider that for it's truth. You can consider it for her state of mind.
Jeffress starts again. Asking about entries in notes to Ms Wilson or Valerie Flame, I mean Plame.
J Is it true that when you read Wilson's article, Btw, did you see Wilson's appearance on MTP. Did you read article in WaPo.
M I don't remember when I read either article.
J So it was the op-ed that she did see.
M I remember reading it, I'm not sure I read it in the day it appeared.
J You found it interesting.
M I found it surprising bc, in two respects, it was the first time someone who participated in collection of WMD was saying that Wh distorted it, if Mr Wilson said he had been sent on this trip, usually one signs a waiver, the CIA had permitted him to write this op-ed in the NYT. Was this right, had this happened?
J On that second point, you would have thought that someone who went on a mission with CIA would have had a contract to prevent him from disclosing the trip. Is it true you decided to ask people about how he was able to write about this?
M I knew I was going to explore it in my questions.
J You did ask people.
M I asked a number of people about that aspect of it.
J You have a reference to Valerie Flame (he spells out the name)
M It'd be helpful to see that note
J That's not her maiden name, her name is Plame. ANd she goes by Valerie Wilson.
M I don't know that.
J Where'd that come from?
M I dont remember,
J Not Libby
M I don't know, I don't think so.
J You have another entry. You do not believe that that came from Libby.
M I don't believe it did.
J Another reference to VF. Or Valery.
M I believe so, If you want me to say exactly where or when I'd have to see my notes.
J Do you know where any of those came from. You don't believe they came from Libby.
M I don't.
J Can you remember anyone else you talked to, about Wilson's wife.
M I've searched my memory I can't remember specific discussions about her.
J The more people you talked to about her, you learned to spell the name semi-correctly.
M I believe I did,[frustrated laugh]
J Is it true that neither Libby nor anyone else you talked to led you to believe that she had a covert role.
M With Libby
M Not with Libby, I don't remember other conversations.
J Prior to Novak article
J Did you receive any info before Novak article that Mrs Wilson had covert role
M I remember there was a debate about that, I can't remember who told me what. It was unclear to me what her status was.
J Account in NYT, do you remember that, writing "I assumed she worked as an analyst,"
M At which point
J when you wrote the aritcle
M I'd like to see the context.
J Your understanding that she was analyst, but not undercover operative.
J Did Libby give you any info that led you to believe she was undercover agent rather than analyst
M No sir
J The meeting you had in coffee shop on July 8, this meeting set up at your request, not Libby's?
J Concerned other issues as well, you talked about general WMD, other issues on pre-war intell, other issues on 16 words. Talked about, you've got 10 pages of notes. In those notes,
M I'm not sure it's 10, I know there are many
J Lots of pages. In the course of that, in parens, wife works in WINPAC, you knew at the time WINPAC to be unit of CIA, that's publicly known,
M I believe it's on their website now.
J Did you check into this, have you ever found any info that she does work at WINPAC
M I did not check into
J Would it surprise you that she never worked at WINPAC
M At this stage nothing would surprise me
[more discussion about Plame]
J You don't know that you hadn't already talked to somebody about Wilson's wife
M I can't be absolutely certain, no.
J I asked you if you talked to as many people as you could think of, about how he came to write article
M I was interested in both subjects, about how the veracity and how he came to write it.
GJ page 9. When you appeared first time, And what did you decide to do as a result. Ask as many people I could think of why Wilson would have been allowed to write that article.
J Among the people was Mr Libby, you talked to him for two hours, correct?
J The other people you asked about that subject, remember any others?
J is it fair to say you might have asked other officials about Wilson's wife.
M After July 6, after the article, I certainly would have asked people about the article.
M No, wait a minute, I'm not sure I knew, I was focused on Mr Wilson's charges. I can't remember when I started telephoning everyone. One of the first people I talked to about it was Libby bc he was the first major interview I had scheduled.
GJ testimony: No specific recollection to talking to others about Plame
M I'm sorry, which time, what's the context [frustrated]
J 8-day window, Wilson topic of interest, is it fair to say you were calling lots of people, you said yes. Now that's the time period.
J Let me go back and finish up. You talked to others
M I know I did, but I can't remember who they were.
J Did in your recollection did Libby say that Wilson's wife was responsible for sending her husband to Niger
M I don't recall that.
J First time you ever met Libby he said that he'd be happy to talk to you, but as SAO. You worked as a reporter for 37 years
M 30. I don't think it's 40 yet
J How many times do people ask to talk on background deep background
M Fairly standard, particularly in this Admin [laughter in media room]
J It'd be fair to say more (this admin and others) talk on not-for-attribution than on attribution
M In general, that's correct.
J Did you talk about how important it is to have conversations where they're not referred to by name.
M The importance of source protection is important to my profession.
J In your television appearance, the importance of that is why you spent 85 days in jail
J Do you recall saying you have contributed to articles relying on sources at highest level of govt.
Jeffress checks with Wells, may we approach bench. Sidebar.
Judy's looking at someone, laughing. Now nervous tic with her hair.
Redirect [no way!!! That's nut. They're not done with her]
Fitz You've been asked to references to Valerie Flame, VF. WRT your notebook for June 23, (he shows it to her), Have you reviewed the notebook you have that includes the June 23 conversation, with your counsel. Have you done it once, how many times.
F Is there any reference to Wilson's wife other than the one you described with Libby
F Turning to notebook with conversation with Libby. Have you reviewed that notebook.
F Any reference in notebook, by name, initials, prior to July 8 conversation with Libby. The references that Jeffress asked about, do they call occur later in notebook. Are any tied to specific conversations with people.
F do you remember when you read Wilson op-ed
M I can't remember
F What time was meeting with Libby
M First thing–not being a morning person, it was early, it was 8, I think. I can't be certain, but it was about 8:00
F You were asked GJ questions whether your memory was bad WRT bureau. I'm going to pretend I know how to use an elmo,but if Mr Richards can help.
Walton Is this already in
F I was going to read from a different section of what Jeffress read earlier. I'm going to read 19-24, we just read 11 to 18.
Normally when I hear bureau, I think FBI, but in this context, and the fact that he used the word and we had been talking about the Agency. I believed he meant CIA.
F Were you fuzzy about bureau in context, were you fuzzy about how used bureau, would you use bureau with someone who worked with FBI
F Did you ever speak to Joe Wilson
M No, I might have called that number, but I remember not succeeding
F Two streams of reporting
F Do you recall not agreeing that it was discussed on June 23.
F is it fair to say 2 streams reporting came in July 8
M I believe that's correct
[Score! Fitz just got Judy correcting Jeffress on one of his mistakes!! Jeffress had suggested it happened on June 23, she corrected him, she was right]
F directing her to read her GJ testimony I'm going to ask you whether you recall the 2 streams conversation July 8 or June 23. Do you recall?
M July 8
F you were asked about June 23 meeting. At any time when you got subpoena did you ever forget that Libby had discussed Wilson's wife w/o regard to date.
M I think I'm confused by question.
F Did you remember that you had a conversation with Libby, even if you didn't know the date.
F In 10 2005 when you testified, did you recall that you and Mr Libby had discussed Mr Wilson's wife.
M I had a vague memory that I had had another conversation, that I couldn't quite place
F Did you recall July 8 meeting. Did you describe that meeting. You were asked if that was the first you learned about Wilson's wife.
Approaches with GJ transcript.
F What did you remember as of the time of your first GJ appearance,
M I had a vague memory of having talked with someoen about Ms Plame's status. I couldn't place it. I knew on July 8 that that was the first I had heard WINPAC. I just couldn't testify that that was the first time I heard about her status.
F After that date did you find any conversations predating July 8.
F What did you find
M June notebook.
F when you testified to GJ, did you read notes to GJ, did some of the notes spark memories?
F Do you remember everything in your ntoes
F Did you testify about those memories that sparked memories
F Did you testify about notes that didn't spark memory
M Yes, I said I didn't remember
F What was your testimony based on bf this GJ
M My indepedent memory refreshed by my notes
F Are there things in your notes you have not testified about
F Focus in July and June, can you explain what your focus was and how his focus differed
M In both