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Libby Live: Cathie Martin, Four


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We'll start by finishing Cathie Martin's cross today. Then Ari and his "hush hush" conversation with Libby.

While we're waiting, I just wanted to add something to Friday's liveblog that I clarified with journalists, who are much better at quotes than me. In the midst of the big squabble over whether Fitzgerald has to reveal every detail of Ari's immunity deal, Wells said something to the effect of, "We're probably going to argue this … maybe going to argue this after the trial." He slipped. While I totally understand his interest in recording an objection so he can appeal it, he should not reveal he thinks he "probably" will have to appeal his case. You see, if you win this one, Wells, you won't need to appeal.

Milling around. Fitz has a bright blue tie on this morning. 

Martin's got a white button-up shirt, black jacket, maybe pearls. She came in with a big smile (looks rested), but now has her "I don't want to be here" face on. Poured herself water, glance at her lawyers (assuming they're the same place they were last week). Catches someone's eye and smiles. She's not happy to be here, but seems more relaxed than on Thursday.  

If I had to guess, I'd say more of the journalists are actually IN the court room today–it looks more crowded.

Fitz and Jeffress had been in chambers with the judge–everyone thought they were the judge when they came out. Laughter all around.

Unsubstantiated rumors in the media room–the pearls are cultured, a gift from Libby. Others say the FCC chairman gave them to her.

Here we go.


Ah geez. They come out of chambers, then go into sidebar!! Not a good way to start a Monday Morning. Everyone agrees that Fitz has gotten a hair cut. 

Walton: Issues relating to Fleischer. Regarding the underlying information on immunity–it's essentially moot, govt has given everything that has transpired. It is my view that Giglio ensures that any benefit that a govt witness will get, that info be made available so defense can impugn credibility. I didn't see that there was anything of that nature. The govt has basically provided what has occurred. 

Fitz: We provided an ex parte affadavit to you, they don't have it.

Walton: I'm satisfied that there was nothing that conferred a benefit on Ari–in my view no Giglio violation that occurred here. Whether govt can bring out information as to why Ari sought counsel, it seems that in reference to that, the Defense is going to attack Fleischer's credibility, I think it would be fundamentally unfair for me not to permit the govt to establish why he thought it was important to seek counsel. I think to not permit the govt to do that would cause them to have to fight battle regarding his credibility with one hand behind back. Will give instruction that it cannot be used to assess Libby's guilt or innocence. [I think Walton said Ari doesn't believe he committed a crime, but I'm not sure about it.]

[Short version–they won't introduce the 1X2X6 article, but get to explain why he was worried.]

Jeffress: Mr. Fleischer's reading of this article was not the reason he got immunity, it's the reason he hired counsel. The reason he refused to testify was based on advice of counsel.  Jeffress is pushing that Ari refused to testify on advice of counsel. 2/3 of the people in this case hired counsel. [Did he do this math? Let's see your numbers, Jeffress.] Jeffress trying to assert that govt is saying if Ari thought he might have a problem, then Libby might have thought he had a problem. They're trying to prove Mr. Fleischer's state of mind to prove that Libby had a certain state of mind. 

Walton: this is only beind admitted as it relates to Fleishcer.

J: Want to make one more thing clear.  

Walton: You can take it off the table if in closing argument you say you're not raising any issue about his credibility. 

J: Thank you your honor, but no. So that the record is clear we do not intend to cross as to why he got immunity.

W: You've already done that in the opening statement.

J: No, I don't believe that's true. 


W: Is it the government's understanding that he thought others would think he had committed a crime.

Bonamici is up. B: Yes, that's our understanding. The process of obtaining immunity was begun shortly after that date.  

W: Jeffress wants to suggest it was his counsel's decision, not his own.

B: We're not going to be asking about attorney-client privilege.

B: Zeidenberg is whispering to me something that was reported on Thursday, that upon reading the article. We haven't asked him about those conversations (about attorney-client). Our understanding from Mr. F was that he might be in legal jeopardy he hadn't done anything with Novak he hadn't done anything intentionally wrt disclosure of covert agent, he should not be in position where he might be convicted of a crime.  Rather than a normal case, where you have a witness who IS guilty, here you have a witness where in his heart of hearts he didn't believe he had done something wrong.

They'll get to describe Ari reading the article, and Walton will give the jurors an instruction that it doesn't relate to Libby. 


Martin back–she had been out chatting with her lawyers.

Jurors in. 

W: I assume that eveyrone was able to avoid the media coverage about this case. We have lost one juror. [Shoot, I hope Pach can ID her.]

Wells up:

Wells: I'd like to develop a demonstrative timeline Sunday July 6 until after publication of Novak article.

Timeline up on exhibit board.

W will be Wells from here on out.

W: July 6, Joe's article., July 7, you developed talking points–

M I didnt develop them for him, I had them and I just sent them to him. 

W Sometime on July 7 WH admitted use of 16 words was a mistake

M sometime that evening.  

Wells gives her a document to ID. She looks unsure.

M Looks like a press article that I forwarded on to West Wing press office and to Scooter's assistant. I don't recall the article.

W Turn to the second page.

She's nodding.

W does that refresh your recollection?

Email from Martin forwarding AP article–article and email admitted.


W: page two states Ari set off a furor when he acknowledged that [16 words] should not have been included.

W: July 8, you meet with VP Cheney and others staffers at VP's office on Hill.  At that time Cheney personally dictates the talking points that he wants you to deliver wrt Wilson allegations. And also Andrea Mitchell goes on TV and reports that certain people at WH are saying CIA is at fault. If we go to Wednesday July 9 that is the day Matthews continues to severely criticize VP.

M He was reporting about this. I don't recall that specifically.

W shows her a document to refresh her recollection. Matthews reported certain criticisms.  She's looking.

W Now, if we go to July 10, you work on draft of Tenet statement, work late into the night. Do you recall what you were doing during the day?

M Following the story.

W July 11, you drafted talking points that would be used by Condi on Sunday shows.

M I assisted the press office to prepare Rice for her appearance on the Sunday shows.

Martin identifies email to Anton with her talking points for Condi's briefing book, made comments on Q&A and some additional suggestions. Admitted into evidence.

W Also on July 11, there was a press gaggle containing comments from Ari and Dr. Rice [Hey, someone told Wells that maybe he should show a woman some respect!] Was it your job to keep track of the press gaggles.

M It's always my job to monitor the news. We were also monitoring what was coming from Africa in the press gaggles. 

Martin identifies July 11 gaggle. Martin looks shocked by something.And confused. Like maybe she needs classes glasses [oops, not a transcript] too.

W Mr Fleischer is saying the CIA cleared on it. I apologize, it was Dr. Rice who was speaking. The CIA cleared on it.

M I believe so.

W She goes on to say there was even some discussion on that particular sentence so it reflected better. Now she goes on to say [this is Condi sticking the shiv into Tenet].


W Knowing what we know now. [he's just reading from Condi's statement] From the press perspective the press is asking whether Dr. Rice and WH are attacking CIA and putting blame on CIA.

W Late on July 11, some discussion about putting it out late on Friday it wouldn't get as much coverage. You wanted the statement to put it out to get as much coverage. The reason it went out late is because CIA was slow in approving.

M I don't know that, but I assumed that.

W July 12. Travel to Norfolk. The plane left very early. That was the birthday [when he says it, it sounds like, "birfday"; update 7/28: I need to explain something about Wells. In the media room, we've joked about counting how many personalities he'll appear in. In particular, he shifts readily between a downhome personality to a very patrician attitude. It appears to be something he turns off and on at will. So I read the pronounciation as an effort to make this whole family thing seem more down to earth, which is the reason I mentioned the pronounciation.] So the kids had to be up very early to be on the plane to Norfolk. You understood Libby was anxious to get home bc of the kids.

M I understood it was bc it was his son's birthday, and his son shouldn't have to wait on his birthday.

W Part of the reason for bringing the kids was so they could enjoy the celebration.

M It was a fun trip.

W By the time you got back it had been a pretty long day. Also on July 12, call to Cooper. Libby made a call to Kessler. And Libby made a call to Evan Thomas.

M And left a message.

W Then on Sunday July 13, Dr. Rice appears on Sunday talk shows. Going back to the 12, I asked you a question about nagging. Just so the record is clear, the word nagging is your word. That wasn't my word. [Yup, someone got to him about appearing to be a shit to women.]

M I would accurately describe it as bugging, nagging Scooter.

W On Monday one of Cooper's articles comes out.

Now showing the article, I think.


IDs the Time article that mentions "part of" Libby's quote.

W A question of trust, Michael Duffy, James Carney. Also Mr. Matthew Cooper. [reading from article]

Martin smiles when he gets to the words, "suspicious of kings."

W When you said last week that your involvement in addressing the criticism was much bigger than addressing the narrow allegations of Joseph Wilson.

M the story grew–it started as Joe Wilson piece. That was our original piece of it. As Wilson comes forward. As the press begins asking questions it becomes a larger story about the SOTU.

W BC Bush and senior comm team were in Africa, you and Libby and Cheney were tasked to responding to the larger issue.

M I don't think I specifically said I was tasked. I felt an obligation to help the larger WH. If folks had been at the WH, I might not have been as involved.

W Turn to page that … contains portion of quotation that Mr. Libby gave to Cooper. You indicated last week you were upset with how Mr. Cooper had portrayed Libby's quote.

M All is says is that VP asked a question about the [Niger] report.  The implication in my view was that it had been a seed to lead to Joe Wilson's trip because he had asked about this piece of intell.

W You thought the way he used the quote gave the opposite impression.

M We had given a much broader quote. We had no knowledge of anybody being sent to Niger because we asked a question.

W Did you express your frustration.

M I explained it was unfair.

W Did Cooper offer a response?

M I wouldn't say he agreed with me, but understood why I was upset, said he'd talk to his editors and he got back to me to say they would publish quote in web story.  

W It was too late to correct print magazine.

M We agreed it was too late to do that.  He got back to me to say they'd include the full quote online.

W introduces web story.


M This looks like a version of the full web story. 

W In online article Cooper wrote, "in exclusive interview." [Reading the full quote] Is it correct that in the online version, Cooper included the full quote. [Now on page 1–this is "War on Wilson"–where Time reveals it got the leak too.] [Reading] has the Bush Administration declared war on Wilson?

Now reading the quote on "Wilson's wife."

W This article specifically refers to the fact that Ambassador's wife is a CIA official. It also refers to the fact that Novak had written about Plame.

M It implies that.

W You recall that Novak's article came out in press on Monday July 14. [Places that article up]

W Do you recall reading Mr. Novak's article when it came out?

M Yes

W You remember reading that Wilson's wife was employed by CIA.  After Novak disclosed Mr. Wilson's wife. Is it correct that the talking points you were using WRT OVP was using did not change. At no time after it was disclosed did OVP change its position that the talking points should be on the merits and there was no need to mention Mrs. Wilson. 

M We did not change our talking points.

W If you look at talking points before and after there is no mention of Mrs. Wilson.  Is it fair to say that when the Novak article came out, from your personal perspective that was not viewed as a big article.

M It wasn't a huge revelation to me because I KNEW, I knew it was a big deal that he had disclosed it.  

W Even in terms of the public, the Novak article did not take on huge importance. 

Walton interrupts and notes she has no way of testifying about public. [Oops, that didn't work out the way Wells wanted.]

Wells returns to his timeline–he's on a second page now.  

W On July 15 you recall drafting a set of talking points to respond to Chris Matthews. 

M I recall that I did it, I don't recall the date. [Wells gives them to her] Yes, these are the talking points, we already thought the claims he was making had been disproved or rebutted and he wasn't making any rebuttal.

[Wells is trying to use the WHIG related response after the leak to show that the WH was obsessed with Plame, thereby making his argument that Rove was the guilty one, and WH was sacrificing Libby]

W These are the first talking points you drafted after the Novak article?

M I believe.

W Is it correct that these did not make any reference to Mrs. Wilson. 

W By 17, the version of Time article we discussed came out. 

W July 18 lunch, Cheney did not use disclosure of Plame as a talking point. 

W September 28 criminal investigation announced in newspapers. First time you're interviewed on October 22.

M Timeframe sounds about right.

W One of the things you're asked, you're asked about telephone call with Cooper.

M I know I was asked about it.

W You were being asked about a telephone call that took place 3 months earlier.  

Objection, sustained.

W You did not hear the entire conversation bc you took a telephone call from Jennifer Millerwise. During the time you were on the call you were unable to hear the conversation. You only heard one side of the call. Even during the period when you were not on the telephone with Millerwise, you were not paying close attention.

M I was paying attention, I was not taking notes bc Scooter was reading a quote, I had the quote.

He's trying to say she didn't pay attention, she's saying she didn't take notes.

W you do not have a specific recollection of the words. You have stated that it's not memorable to you.

M That's a good description of the call.  

W When you said you had no recollection of Libby saying that some "reporters are saying" you say you have no recollection of those words. Is it also correct that you're not sure one way or another.

M  I have no recollection of it.

W when you replied to Mr. Fitz last week and said you have no recollection, what you meant is that you have no recollection of whether he did or didn't use those words.

[Fitz objecting through here] 

M My recollection is that I did not hear him say those words.

Walton interrupts. "I think she said she doesn't recall those words." She does not recall him ever saying those words.

W You're not saying he didn't say those words, you just didn't hear it.

W Your honor, I know it's not your standard practice… I was going to offer the document in evidence [the timeline]

Fitz Can we take it up at the next sidebar.

W You've testified that you worked on four sets of talking points.

M Four sets, yeah.

Wells is going through to point out that none of the talking points includes a mention of Plame. 


Wells is introducing all the talking points. July 7, July 8, July 12, July 14. [these are just the typed ones]

W to the respect that jurors want to understand in real time, those documents set forth what the talking points were. All those talking points respond to Joseph Wilson's claims and none of those mention Valerie Wilson. Mr Libby reviewed these talking points with you.

M He reviewed the dictated version on July 8, those are the only ones I remember him reviewing with me. I don't recall the Ari ones. I gave him a copy of the Matthews ones. 

W Libby brought you the talking points on July 12.

M Yes.

W [Goes through Libby's involvement in the July 12 talking points] Mr. Libby saw all of the talking points. 

W From the entire period form July 6 through the conservative columnist luncheon, he never raised it with you and you didn't raise it with him. You're not aware of any evidence that the fact that Mrs. Wilson worked at the CIA was an important point.

Objection. Overruled.

M I'm not aware of any specific evidence that would suggest that.

W Want to go back to July 8. You had two conversations with Harlow. During the first he was a lot friendlier than the second one. On July 8 Harlow told you that he had conversations with Mitchell.

M That at least they had called.

M I remember him giving me info she was doing piece.  

W You understand the part that WH criticizing CIA.

M When it came out, I don't think I knew that ahead of time.

W Hadley talked to you about finger-pointing from OVP.

M I believe it as on July 9.  

W Do you know that Hadley went to work as consultant for NBC. [Oops, meant Harlow]

Objection, seems to have been sustained.

W I want to go to Tenet statement.  You said discussions were delicate. Why did you use term delicate.

M Seemed delicate given tight nit group, Hadley had asked to exclude communicators, it appeared to me based on conversation with Scooter, Hadley was talking to Tenet, and Hadley was relaying back and forth.

W Do you recall Hadley saying Tenet was mad and upset.

M He suggested that that was the case, I can't recall the specific words.

W Hadley's position was what? Hadley was Dr. Rice's chief assistant. What you understood was taking place on July 10 was that Hadley was serving as a go-beween between Tenet on one side and VP and Libby on the other side.


W Is it fair to say you and Mr. Libby thought the Tenet statement was a good statement but did not go far enough?  Is it correct that Tenet statement only makes one mention of what VP knew about Wilson's trip.

M It makes clear that they didn't brief VP about Wilson's trip.

W Except for that brief reference, the thrust of it was whether or not Bush was in error.

M correct, but I remember somewhere in here, it also makes clear w/o referring to VP that he was sent on own initiative by CIA.

W I want to go to a different subject. You testified that Libby's primary job was to focus on National security issues. During the week of July 7 when you were working with Libby, you observed that Libby still was attending to regular national security responsibilities.

M I observed that he was busy. I never knew precisely what he was doing. Spent a good deal of time with VP.

W He was not just working on Tenet statement.

M I assume not.

W You remember you had to workaround getting access to him.

M Yes

W Those meetings would include national security issues.

M I don't know. I just know he was busy in meetings and often with the VP.  

W You were asked about whether you had discomfort about fact that Libby was talking to Mitchell while he had NIE open. Is it correct that had you [witdrawn] had you know NIE had been declassified, you would not have had those feelings of discomfort. The fact that you put a question mark by item #8 involving notes, had you know that NIE had been declassified, you would not have put the question mark by question #8. 

M Probably not.

W You testified you went to senior staff meetings every day. Still held while President in Africa. Who would be there.

M Clare Buchan, Adam Levine, they might have taken turns that week, someone from NSC, Steve Hadley, someone from comm, not sure who was there other than me, but I was there in VP role, Deputy COS office, counsel's office,

W Would Karl Rove be there. 

W Who's Karl Rove? 

M Senior advisor to Pres.

W He's still there. And in 2003 he held those titles.

M Deputy COS got added, I don't remember when it happened.

W Karl Rove, one of his primary jobs was political strategy. Karl Rove viewed as one of the persons most responsible for election in 2000? 

Objection, sustained.

W I asked you a question last week–I'm almost finished. See if I can find it. I asked you the following question. When you were on a mission to try to get the whole story out, you did not view "the wife" as part of that story. You answered "no," I believe you meant "correct." Let me put the question to you fresh. When you were on a mission to try to get the whole story out WRT VP's response, you did not view "the wife" as part of that story. Correct?

M Correct.

W I'm just about finished. You were asked some questions last week concerning govt ex, the notes you took during the time you were working on Tenet statement. Exhibit is contained in two plastic folders but if you put docs together, you can see that they were stapled together as one and what happened was that you were given a copy of the draft of Tenet statement, and also some notes, concerning exactly what VP was saying and then bc you didn't have any paper, you wrote your notes on the back of the draft, this is the doct that Ms Mayfield later came and asked for the notes back. Nothing was destroyed.

M Those are my notes.

W One second. [Cathie drinks water]

M Identifies email traffic between Cooper and Martin

F Makes sure personal phonenumbers will be redacted.

Puts up email: 

Matt, I got it but have not gotten your answers. I am traveling with VP tomorrow morning and will likely be able to corner some folks. Any chance we can do this first in the am? That was you can add to your questoins. Let me know. 

W What did you understand deadline.

M I knew mags don't close until Saturday afternoon, I knew I might be able to get him answers

W It was your rec that Libby talk to Cooper.

M It was my recommendation that we a) decide whether we want to be in the story, and I recommended we should be in it.

W Libby followed your rec. Libby had not talked to Cooper in his life.

M Correct 

W no further questions.  

10 minute break for court reporters. Apparently we media folks have been too slobby. cleaning people not so happy.


Wells corrects the Hadley/Harlow mistake.

Jury coming in. 

Fitzgerald up. Good morning Ms. Martin. I'll try to direct your attention to the questions as best as I can.

F Wells described a "make sense date" regarding your conversation might be. Prior to this trial had the govt told you what Grenier might be. Had the govt told you the testimony about Grossman. Or Schmall. Your testimony was given with the knowledge of what the others would say.

m Yes 

F  Burden, not enough people to deal with communications crisis. The fact that people were in Africa, was that what caused the problem with Matthews?

M No Christ Matthews' continued reference to Wilson's trip having been at bequest of VP, reference to Scooter by name, that "we should have known" about Wilson's trip.

F What is OVP. What was their focus.

M Office of Vice President. Talking about our narrow piece of the story which was that VP didn't know Mr. Wilson got sent on any mission and didn't know that his trip had occurred.

F You were asked whether your talking points made reference to Mrs. Wilson

F Is it fair to say that if anyone in OVP did talk to reporters about Wilson's wife, they didn't do it based on your talking points. 

Objection sustained, I think.

F Did the VP every specifically tell you whether or not the whole truth included Mr Wilson's wife. Did the VP ever show you copy of op-ed that he marked up personally. Did the VP keep you current on anything they were doing WRT the press–on everything.

M No

F When you told them about Mrs Wilson, did they tell you whether or not they had heard it. Did they ever tell you whether or not other people had told them same info. Did VP ever direct you to speak to Judith Miller.  Were you aware of June 23 meeting? July 8 meeting? July 12, anxious to get hom. Did Libby tell you he'd call Miller from home. Did he tell you he called Miller? Did he ever tell you about any of the conversations with Miller. Did anyone tell you the NIE had been declassified. 

M No, I was still urging.

F On July 10, handwritten notes. Wells took you some things about. You testified about giving someone an exclusive. Did Libby indicate whether he had given some of that information already.  Libby was in the loop on your talking points. Were you in the loop on what Libby was going to say to the press.

F Do you recall what Libby was doing when you took telephone call from Millerwise on July 12. Reading the quote precisely. Do you recall what Libby was doing when you finished the call with Jennifer.

M I think he was still reading from the card.

F did you hear the end of the conversation.

M I believe so.

F You were asked questions about whether what you heard was memorable. I'm going to ask whether this is something you heard, whether it'd be memorable.

He reads from Libby's testimony.

Schuster's phone is singing Hail to the Victors behind me. I'm the only one not pissed, since I'm a wolverine tool

M looks overwhelmed by all the things Libby was saying.

F Did you hear that conversation

M Not that I recall. 

F Would that would be memorable.

M I think so

F DId you ever hear Libby make a statement that Libby didn't know if Wilson had a wife.

M No.

F do you have a personal knowledge about Grossman's conversation with Libby. Grenier?

Objection, overruled.

F As you sit here now, do you have personal knoweldge about what Cheney and Libby talked about Wilson's wife when you're not in the room.  (Goes through the Miller conversations again, repeating, "Do you have personal knowledge."

M No

F Thank you.

Wells wants back up.



Wells: Ms Martin did you hear what occurred at end of Cooper conversation.

M Yes, I believe so.

W Testified before GJ, at that time sworn to tell the truth. In the GJ you were asked the following question.  "What happened at the end of the conversation?"  Answer, "It's not memorable to me, I don't remember. They finished the quote and did whatever their back and forth was on verifying the pieces and he hung up, done." You told the GJ that wrt end of conversation.

M I don't have a specific recollection of what words they were doing. 

W It was much closer in time during GJ. You have not been able to refresh your memory.

Fitz Is it still your testimony that you heard the end of conversation.

M Yes

F Do you remember any words? 

M No

F Anthing change?

M No.

(Media room laughs. Fitz is not impressed with Wells' response.)

Sidebar again.  I think Martin sees the end is in sight. leaning back. She's got a bit of relief on her face, looking at lawyers. Makes a face, a bit of a smirk.


Walton–a juror question: In reference to call between Libby and Mitchell, you indicated some concerns about NIE being revealed. Can you tell us what your concerns were?

M I thought the NIE was classified, and we shouldn't talk about it.

Walton, did you do anything, inform anyone about that.

M I was still not clear what it mean when VP says, "you can say this." I was still urging them to declassify it and disclose it to the public.

Walton, if you had concerns, why didn't you take action?

M BC VP of US had told me to say it, I didn't know where I was going to go.  [she had this snitty tone, as if to say 'what are you, kidding? he's the VP']

Walton, in reference to the questions I was asking the witness, There is no dispute between the parties that on July 8 2003, that certain portions of the NIE had been declassified although Ms. Martin had not been made aware of the declassification. 

Walton, in reference to the discussion that Libby had to Cooper at Andrews AFB, you indicated that certain portions of that conversation you didn't hear bc you were on another telephone call, you were in the same room, but on a call. Did you ever ask him what he said to Cooper while you were on the other telephone.

M No.

Walton When you discussed your first telephone call with Mr. Harlow. How did you describe Ms. Wilson's employement

M I believe I said, former Ambassador Joe Wilson his wife worked over there, I didn't say she was an agent, but I wrote it in my notes.

Walton you didn't say that

M No.

Walton Was it unusual not to involve the communicators when responses being made to inquiries by the press. Did you have concerns about communicators not being included. [damn good question, juror!!]

M I was concerend about DC. I wasn't aware about what was going on on the Plane, I was concerned that we couldn't advise them about this matter.  

Walton refers to an exhibit, asks why Hadley and Scooter got crossed off of her notes. I was thinking about who could be "actors," crossed that out then wrote "messengers," then I crossed out Hadley and Scooter I thought they weren't the appropriate Admin people, we needed to have, not the deputies, not the number 2s we needed the number 1.

Walton do you believe reporters got stories wrong and ommitted critical facts. What would you do?

M reporters often get things incorrect. You have to make a judgment call to decide whether you're going to confront the reporter, whether you're going to ask for a correction. We often have back and forth, they don't want to do corrections because they believe they were right. In some cases I feel that it would be productive. In some cases I won, In some cases I lost. I guess in reference to Kristof, if you don't have relationship and I didn't have a relationship and it was a columnist who tended to not agree with us, to be a little more aggressive to us, you might aggravate and create another story by calling them on it. 

Thanks, Witness dismissed.

12:02, onto Ari. 

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